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Re: Fax to EDI/Data
Dear Jeff Mick,
Excellent! Thank you for pressing the issues concerning
the never-ending discussion on Fax-to-EDI techniques,
and for concisely documenting your rationale as you go.
While this topic will not go away for many years, it is
good to revisit it frequently, and/or to provide online
reference files for the new people.
There is compelling evidence that buyers gain as
much (or more) as sellers in the secure electronic
exchange of business transactions and documents--
when implemented properly. Of course, only the
(retail or wholesale or government) customer can
decide what is "properly" done.
But, speaking as both a former government buyer and
senior logistics manager in the Defense Department,
as well as a commercial consultant, I have found that
government and commercial enterprises can experience
serious disparities in technical expertise and knowledge
of ROI benefits within the customer and/or production
divisions, purchasing department, CFO, and IT group.
Consequently, it is often difficult to achieve a consensus
on the definition of the enterprise problems, or how to
implement an integrated solution in this convergent area,
because it is usually impossible to get agreement to
eliminate the use of paper in the acquisition/legal worlds.
So, the cost savings and other benefits from using secure
EDI/XML/web forms in some offices can not be
transferred to the budgets of the work centers experiencing
the new costs. Since managers in the work centers are
often direct competitors for perks, bonuses, and promotions,
implementing a win-win solution can take a long time.
From the outside, the "customer's" organization appears
to be really missing the boat. But, it may be a purchasing
group manager holding things up because (1) he/she is
unwilling (and not forced) to take staffing cuts related to
EDI/XML efficiencies, (2) is not exempted from handling
and filing paper for all auditable records like orders and
invoices, and therefore (3) not able to release the projected
savings to the IT department to offset costs of the new
EDI/XML products and services.
Perhaps the obvious conclusion is that EDI/XML vendors
and consultants need to do their homework and understand
the customer's business dynamics so they can propose ROI
projections and savings to the appropriate decision-makers.
Of course, that kind of professional work must be done on
a person-to-person basis by competent individuals, and
the tasks can go beyond the expertise and training of the
typical EDI/XML product sales team.
Robert Frank
www.opencommerce.com
P.S. For those who might be interested, my groups have
tried many alternatives (including developing our own
translators and gateways) and we find Softshare products
and services to currently offer the best life-cycle values
for SMEs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mick" <
To: <
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: [EDI-L] Fax to EDI/Data
> Ahh, Peter. Where to begin?!
>
> At 03:25 PM 4/28/2004, Peter Olivola wrote:
> >If you're retail, this works.
>
> Yes, it would be hard to argue the Web forms don't work GREAT for this
> class of buyers.
>
> >Are we talking retail or are we talking B2B?
>
> I think you meant, "Are we talking retail or wholesale?" Or maybe you
> meant, "Are we talking B2C or B2B?" Either way, the question is
irrelevant.
> > >One of the major problems with this approach is that it tries to apply
a
> >retail solution to a wholesale problem as you so pointedly demonstrate.
> >
> >Peter Olivola
> >708 445 0023
> >
>
> I demonstrated nothing of the kind. Instead, I demonstrated that Web forms
> can allow the six customer benefits listed in my quote below, all of which
> are commonly of great interest to business buyers, and to a lesser degree
> to consumer buyers. Please review them one at a time, and if you think
any
> of them are not B2B benefits, state which one and why. Oh, you can add
> instant credit approval as item 7, impossibility of using an invalid part
> number as item 8, and instant denial of forbidden materials and forbidden
> ship-to addresses as items 9 and 10.
>
> As to your notion of a "retail solution," there is nothing inherently
> "retail (B2C)" about Web forms. (On the other hand, the cost and
complexity
> of high-end supply chain solutions renders them inherently B2B.) Web
> browsers are widely deployed, widely understood, and secure (SSL).
Compared
> to fax, they have all of the customer benefits cited below. Instead of
> describing this solution with one word ("retail"), think about the
benefits
> and shortcomings from the point of view of a non-EDI, non-ebiz company
> sending in short (few lines) orders.
>
> Jeff Mick
> Sunnyvale, California, USA
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Jeff Mick [mailto:
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 4:50 PM
> >To:
> >Subject: RE: [EDI-L] Fax to EDI/Data
> >
> >
> >I carry no brief for Perry or his software, but let me count a few of the
> >ways a customer benefits from Web forms ordering, compared to faxing-in
an
> >order:
> >
> >1. Get price and availability info before committing to a perhaps
> >out-of-stock seller
> >
> >2. Bypass seller's order entry errors (the right stuff in the right
amounts
> >arrives on the first try -- no request for RMA (returned materials
> >authorization), no return shipping, no reconciling with next statement,
> >no...)
> >
> >3. Jump hours or days ahead in the order entry queue for possibly
> >short-supply items
> >
> >4. Instant order confirmation, including ship date (which you can save to
> >disk with a couple of clicks)
> >
> >5. Ability to check order status, daily if you wish, or even hourly
> >
> >6. Ability to track orders (if UPS or FedEx or some others)
> >
> >For a familiar consumer parallel, think about faxing a one-line order to
> >Amazon instead of using their Web interface: You want a $24.95 cookbook
as
> >a gift for your wife's birthday next week, so normal delivery is OK.
> >Instead you get 100 pairs of $40 earmuffs when they are back in stock
five
> >weeks from now, and they are shipped by next morning service. Then you
have
> >to fax (?) for an RMA, ship the earmuffs back to Amazon, and scrutinize
> >your credit card bill for a couple of cycles, all this while your wife's
> >divorce lawyer is hectoring you.
> >
> >Push-and-pray business processes -- like faxing orders -- are yesterday's
> >news.
> >
> >That said, the seller should not assume, just because the customer's PC
> >came with a Web browser, he has a gut feel for ebiz; he may need the
> >benefits (partial list above) spelled-out for him. And Web forms are
> >probably not suitable for more than a few lines per day, but a customer
who
> >is hand writing long orders by fax probably would appreciate a pointer to
a
> >$300 QuickBooks or Peach Tree package which will create an XML file to be
> >attached to an email or sent to an FTP site. That file can be signed
and/or
> >encrypted with a $60 PGP application.
> >
> >Jeff Mick
> >Sunnyvale, California, USA
> >
> >
> >At 01:32 PM 4/28/2004, Tom Brandt wrote:
> > >Maybe I'm missing something, but Perry's proposal was from the
customer's
> > >perspective, not the vendor's.
> > >
> > >At 04:08 PM 4/28/2004, Peter Olivola wrote:
> > > >I don't think anyone is buying this "solution" any more, Perry.
> > > >
> > > >Why would a customer increase their effort, i.e., generate an order
out
> >of
> > > >their own system, print it and then rekey it into a web form when
they
> >can
> > > >take the printed version, stick it in a fax machine and push one
button?
> > > >This may be a great idea on the vendor end, but the customer doesn't
see
> >any
> > > >benefit. You remember the customer, don't you, Perry? You remember
that
> > > >most customers have vendor options, don't you, Perry?
> > > >
> > > >Vendor centric models don't solve the problems of a customer centric
> >world.
> > > >
> > > >Peter Olivola
> > > >708 445 0023
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Perry Short [mailto:
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:27 PM
> > > >To: 'Jeff Mick';
> > > >Subject: RE: [EDI-L] Fax to EDI/Data
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Since Web forms has been mentioned twice so far here are the
advantages,
> > > >which depending on your circumstances, may be a solution for you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Web EDI Forms Solution
> > > >
> > > >No more orders to fax or paper invoices to re-key in your system.
> > > >
> > > >You automate business transactions on your end with your non-EDI
> >suppliers
> > > >that have Internet access.
> > > >
> > > >Your current ordering system sends the outbound order to the Web
forms
> > > >system for the supplier to retrieve.
> > > >
> > > >An email is automatically sent to notify your supplier that an order
is
> > > >waiting.
> > > >
> > > >Your supplier then logs onto your dedicated website to view or print
the
> > > >order.
> > > >
> > > >When the order is viewed or printed, an acknowledgement is
automatically
> > > >generated so you know the supplier received the order.
> > > >
> > > >When the supplier manually enters their invoice information in the
Web
> >form,
> > > >the invoice is automatically translated into a format for EDI
translation
> > > >when the supplier completes and "sends" the form.
> > > >
> > > >Although this solution still requires a manual process for the
non-EDI
> > > >supplier, the information keyed into the Web form is fully integrated
> >with
> > > >your EDI/B2B Integration solution.
> > > >
> > > >It can be used for all other business documents with your suppliers,
not
> > > >just purchase orders and invoices.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Benefits include the following:
> > > >
> > > >One time reasonable cost solution (no on-going monthly vendor
charges)
> > > >
> > > >No cost to your suppliers
> > > >
> > > >Non-invasive to your suppliers
> > > >
> > > >No software installation for your suppliers
> > > >
> > > >No software corporate or client license fees for anyone
> > > >
> > > >No on-going maintenance agreement (typically 20%) annually on the
> >software
> > > >license
> > > >
> > > >No VAN cost for you or your suppliers
> > > >
> > > >No additional transaction cost whether use Van, Internet, or whatever
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >And yes, SterlingLink provides this solution. Please contact me or
visit
> > > >our Website to learn more.
> > > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Tom Brandt
> > >Northtech Systems, Inc.
> > >130 S. 1st Street, Suite 220
> > >Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1343
> > >http://www.northtech.com/
>
>
>
>
> .
> Please use the following Message Identifiers as your subject prefix:
<SALES>, <JOBS>, <LIST>, <TECH>, <MISC>, <EVENT>, <OFF-TOPIC>
> Access the list online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L
>
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